Substitute Records - the 1891 LVA List (part 2)

Last time out, I said that I suspected that a lot of the entries on the 1891 LVA list that I couldn't easily match to my existing map were off-licences, or "spirit grocers" as they were frequently known at the time. (That that term was often used as a euphemism for an actual pub, along with "wine merchant", is confusing as hell when trying to ascertain what is what)

And they were (including some food retailing chains of the era), but there are quite a lot that were actual pubs that I have verified by licence notices, sales ads etc from newspaper archives.

So far, I have added 24 'new' old pubs to the map - most closing before 1910, the latest in 1938. I have previously mapped every pub I could find in a 1943 Thoms, so would be surprised to have missed any that were open in 1891 and closed after 1943 - I'm fairly sure I am still missing some 60s-00s openings that have since closed.

This includes my 500th pre-2009 closure, Lennons of 43 Stephen Street Lower - where Masa opposite the Hairy Lemon is today, which just squeaks my 1902 start date by having probably closed in 1903.

I've also found a small handful of places that closed between 1891 and 1902; which don't meet my map rules. Should I ever push back further, I still have these recorded.

I've yet to properly dig in to some of the areas further outside the city centre due to poorer/less consistent addressing - lots of streets have been renumbered, making comparison work a trudge - and more likely to have been captured before, as a far, far higher % of suburban pubs from the Victorian era are still there.

After expanding entries with multiple pubs listed for a single owner, other oddities like a publican owning pubs two sides of a road with sequential numbers - this happened quite a bit! - and removing some duplicates that were probably due to a pub changing hands shortly before the list was written - I have it at 551 entries; with ~160 of them still trading as pubs today. These numbers may change a bit further as I finish off the list.

Only a very, very limited number are still trading with the same name as they had listed in 1891 - N0008 Mullets (albeit this has had other names since), N0211 Clarkes City Arms (as just City Arms), and the nearby N0219 Walsh's - but there is a huge caveat to this. The list is the list of the owners, and very very few gave the name of their pub if it had one.

I must also add that this list is not a list of every LVA member at the time - only those that were announcing they would not be giving Christmas boxes to customers that year. 

N0240 Hole In The Wall

"Europe's longest pub" is also one of the Ireland's narrowest, a rabbit warren of small rooms with a continuous bar serving them, starting as a restaurant at one end, in to a wine bar and then the more pub areas; with a narrow-ish carpark continuing along past the actual 'hole in the wall' of the Phoenix Park, containing some food/coffee vans. 

An odd, albeit in a good way, event occurred during my visit here, which I will now tell in a more rambling manner than I'd usually write a place up.

I settled in here, at a massive table by the fire, while it was fairly quiet and started reading the paper - a broadsheet as it was Sunday, hence the massive table. Attentive floor staff service meant I got a second pint when I might have moved to the next pub; and shortly after that had been delivered; a large family grouping came through looking for a table.

As I was sitting at the largest table in probably the entire pub; and there were still plenty more left (albeit not quite as toasty as by the fire); I offered this to them and was effusively thanked, including by the very polite children.

Approx 10 minutes later, the same staff member who had been attempting to seat said large family arrived with a pint for me - sent down by them as further thanks for giving them the table! I made sure to thank them in person when passing on my way out (they were out of direct range of where I had moved to). So I ended up having three pints in a pub where I intended to have just the one; and this minorly reduced my plans for the rest of the day; albeit I was still avoiding the city centre due to the matches mentioned in the last report so I didn't have a huge area I could cover.

Not the first time I've had someone I previously didn't know buy me a pint when doing a pub ticking trip - but its only the third; the American tourists in N1879 The Bloody Stream, and the owner of another pub who wanted to go through the map for what history I had noted.

Anyway, back to the pub. Its got an interesting interior including a few bits I took photos of for further research; and its still a family run premises; not as common in Dublin as it is outside. 

Revisited pubs, February 2023

1015426 Rubys - I return! Due to a gig in the Point, not due to moving jobs

N0033 3Arena - I'd never really noticed just how early a licence sequence number this is and now want to know if it was an older licence from very nearby moved in... Also - just over 7 quid for a can of Coors.

N0006 Brew Dock - lunch the morning after the 3Arena. The hotel didn't have room service of any description and the bar was shut by 11, so it doesn't get on the list.

N2438 The Lotts - the last line of my writeup from 2017 holds - this is still a comparatively cheap pub for its location.

February and March 2023 Licence Update

*crickets*

Forgot to post this last month, cause there was nothing to post. No changes of interest last month, no changes of interest this month.

Substitute Records - the 1891 LVA List (part 1)

If you have ever dug in to your family history in Ireland, you will have heard of the idea of "census substitutes" - using alternative records to find information that you could have got from census records, had they not succumbed to fire, pulping - or wars preventing them from even being taken.

I use the current Revenue register to define my list of Dublin pubs; and Revenue were able to provide me with full digital copies of the register back to 2011 - when Brendan Howlin as Minister insisted on wider open information from Government departments. But pre-2011 registers do not appear to be available for inspection anywhere. And I have one huge reason for looking for older registers - my map of Dublin pubs back to 1902.

I've generally used Thoms Directory as well as targeted newspaper archive searches to locate old Dublin pubs; having actually 'read' (skimmed, looking for buildings with higher rates valuations that might be pubs) the entire 1986 Thoms street listing; as well as having gone through the list of vintners in the 1943 and 1955 trade lists. That, plus looking specifically for pubs listed for sale, and reading all of the Sunday World Pub Spy in the archives filled in the map to its current state where I have 476 pubs that closed pre-2010 mapped out.

But there are still gaps, and only access to old licence registers is going to fill this in accurately. However, I recently got directed to the best substitute record I'm likely to find by Sam from Come Here To Me!

This is a public letter in the advertisement's section of the Freemans Journal, 'signed' by members of the Licenced Grocers and Vintners Protection Association, a predecessor of todays LVA; a body of which the majority of Dublin's publicans are still members. The membership would also have included some licenced grocers who not involved in on-trade; but the bulk of them will be pubs. 

The letters topic is stating that the policy of giving Christmas boxes to customers was being ended due to financial reasons - this type of agreed anti-consumer action by a trade body would now be highly illegal, and you would not draw attention to it if you did make such a deal!

It's from October 31st 1891, so 11 years before I normally start looking (the 1902 legislative changes are what prevented new pub licences being created without extinguishment of another; a concept that may soon finally end); but a list of ~500 licence holders in Dublin from that era is the best I can expect to hope for.

The main problem with this as a data source is that its a very poor scan of the newspaper. I would imagine that this is from a microfilm source, and that the microfilm camera may not have been particularly well focused. There are two options for accessing this list - the Irish Newspaper Archives and the British Newspaper Archives. The BNA scan is sharper, but fades out in places; whereas the INA scan is blurrier but bolder. And some sections are exceptionally difficult to understand from either source:

British Newspaper Archives copy

Irish Newspaper Archives copy

(I can actually figure out what both of these say - its just not easy!)

A secondary issue is that the list is only barely alphabetical - I suspect that as various members agreed they were placed to the end of the list for their initial letter

By comparing the two scans, I am slowly getting a proper list of premises extracted from this. I will then use my existing map, plus the 1892 Thoms, to correct as many of my transcription errors (or typos in the original) before using the list to add any missing pubs to my map; as well as show which pubs are still trading - so expect an update here in a few weeks on that.

Revisited pubs: January 2023

Forgot to get this one up; and February's will be due quite soon...

S0048 Kennedys, Westland Row - long wait for a train from Pearse and the Gingerman was closed!

S3908 The Well, Stephens Green - regular meeting happens here

N0199 Delaneys, Smithfield - ran in to a friend and ended up here

N0211 Clarkes City Arms - escaping a pub I really didn't like nearby (and haven't written up yet)

N0588 Breffni Inn

I was planning another trip through the city centre to tick off an area of as yet unvisited pubs; before realising that I'd picked a very bad day to do so. 

The shop in my local railway station was open - which it does not normally do on weekends, but does if there's matches on. And there were two - in Croke Park and in Lansdowne Road - which meant that the city was likely to be very busy; as would the train as it got in closer.

So I bailed out at Navan Road Parkway to change to the bus; and decided to hit a cluster of places I hadn't been to yet in the Ashtown/Cabra area, starting with the one closest to the road - the Breffni Inn.

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The Breff, as the branded shirts the barmen are wearing call it, is a perfectly acceptable suburban locals pub in a 1960s estate. In Ireland, 30s-70s suburban developments often included a pub amongst a set of shops and they have nearly always avoided the horror of the English "estate pub" stereotype. That they generally have two floors and a pitched roof helps, I imagine.

The bar was a bit noisy with, I think, four different sports screens on with sound (football, golf, horses x2); and with a slightly unusual tap lineup - all macro, but some of the secondary options like Beamish and Tuborg; but there was also a lounge as a quieter option.

Many of the English "estate pubs" are gone; whereas nearly all the Irish semi-equivalents are still there. Long may they continue.